User talk:Beta M

Welcome

Welcome! And I have to say you that you did a great work :) --millosh 04:09, 11 Aug 2005 (UTC)

I'm planning to stick around... i was basically driven away from Wikipedia yesterday, and was driven by adrenaline. But i'm going to continue going. Funny thing is that right now i'm on my job, it's just that i that no work to do at the moment... q;-) I like it that in Anarchopedia one can actually make article names non-capitalised.  ~ User:Beta_M (VolodyA! V Anarhist) ^Talk

Great :) I was sure that some expirienced Wikipedians would come to Anarchopedia. Because a lot of people (as well as a lot of anarchists) are not familiar with wikis. And the way of working on wiki is a lot different from work on other site. (And, yes, work is not right word, but my English is not so good :) ) BTW, you are Russian? Do you want Anarchopedia in Russian? BTW2, do you know do work on GNU/Linux? --millosh 08:50, 11 Aug 2005 (UTC)

I would be considered Russian by many people, and i think that is what you are talking about... right? q;-) I wouldn't mind getting russian version of Anarchopedia started, but let me get english version down to the degree when people can actually use it as some sort of a refference. Btw, in your opinion what is the main point of Anarchopedia, what i'm trying to do is to actually show how encyclopedia can be written without any regulations... so it would be to see if Wikipedia is the only way or only one way.  ~ User:Beta_M (VolodyA! V Anarhist) ^Talk

Initially, I started a small number of languages for Anarchopedia. Even there are a lot of Spanish speaking anarchists, I spa: is not so active. Italian Anarchopedia doesn't have 2 articles. So, I stopped openning of new languages until there are some people who are interested in writing Anarchopedia in their language. I noticed that your name is Russian and I thought that you mey want to open Anarchopedia in Russian. --millosh 08:21, 12 Aug 2005 (UTC)

I agree that Anarchopedia in English should be much better then it was before you came. Anarchopedia in German and in fra:French are much better then this one. And only because there were no people who wanted to do what you are doing now. (My English is not so good; also I am trying to be involved in creating articles as less as I can because I think that people should not care what do I think about exact content of articles.) --millosh 08:21, 12 Aug 2005 (UTC)

I started Anarchopedia with this ideas: (1) Free knowledge is one of the main anarchist goals and "one big anarchist encyclopedia" should be written in such way. (However, there is Infoshop OpenWiki which is older then Anarchopedia, but it has some disadvantages; as well as we can treat Wikipedia as enough good place for encyclopedic articles about anarchism.) So, the first, but not the most important reason is to build "encyclopedia about anarchism" in "anarchic fashion" ;) (2) Anarchopedia should be, also, "encyclopedia for anarchists", which includes (in general) something like "general encyclopedia without right wing POV and without authoritarian POV" (even it is called NPOV on Wikipedia). So, in general, all articles from Wikipedia are welcome here. Of course, with some changes :) (3) I would not say that Anarchopedia would be "without regulations", but "without power structure". All editors of Anarchopedia are equal and they are regulating Anarchopedia. I think that you did mean the same. (4) And, maybe the most important idea is to see how can we build anarchy, at least in cyrber space. I treat Anarchopedia as some kind of social experiment (but, of course, not only as a social experiment): if we have enough responsibility and enough strength to build "Wikipedia without power structure", we would be able to say that we have enough responsibility and enough strenght to build anarchy in the future. Also, successful Anarchopedia would give possibility for successful (Anarchopedian) community, which would be a great event. --millosh 08:21, 12 Aug 2005 (UTC)

Sig on wikipedia

beta m, your sig on Wikipedia is messing up lists. See [1], for example. Quadell 09:50, 18 Aug 2005 (UTC)

When i went there it was already fixed. Thanks for bringing it to my attention, i'd fix it myself it that would be necessary.  ~ User:Beta_M (VolodyA! V Anarhist) ^Talk

NP

it was a pleasure to restore your page :] Libre 08:30, 30 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the welcome

Thanks for the welcome. I notice you copy content from other wikis to here; you are more than welcome (encouraged) to copy content from the wiki I started on veganism / animal rights, wikiveg. The license is dual GFDL/CC-by-sa, which allows for content to be used under either license. Zach Alexander 21:53, 13 Mar 2006 (UTC)

I'll start on that one when i finish with the some other ones... thanks for the heads up.  ~ User:Beta_M (VolodyA! V Anarhist) ^Talk

Admin privs

Dude, are you crazy???? Why do new users have admin privs??? Spam bots can just sign in and ruin the fuck out of this place... Infinity0 22:17, 20 Mar 2006 (UTC)

Whoops, I thought you were the admin. Infinity0 22:23, 20 Mar 2006 (UTC)

It's ok... q;-)  ~ User:Beta_M (VolodyA! V Anarhist) ^Talk

User account

Hi beta_m. I think you won't be able to log into your user account since it starts with a lower-case letter. Perhaps this is due to a software upgrade. Rev 22 10:40, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Kategory Humor

I think we need this kategory. By the way your joke is good: http://www.whatwethink.org/kingston/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1024 ;) --X 06:28, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Go for it... i suggest that we make a subspace for it, though as well as the category, so that when people post links around it will be abvious that they are posting jokes... for example you can have Folklore:family trouble. The problem is also with the issue of copyright, many jokes are around which have been pulled from magazines like Maxim or Mad Magazine, how to we differentiate it from true folklore?  ~ User:Beta_M (VolodyA! V Anarhist) ^Talk

The reason for my idea of including humor is simple. If people hear the word anarchism, they see a picture with bottle-throwing chaots or black demo or fighting people in the tv-news... Anarchism is more, it's life what included also humor. Our aim should be to bring the idea of anarchism to the people, they should think it's perhaps my brother and not that anrchist people come from an other world... (I hope you can understand my intension with my bad English.) --X 19:13, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I had the feeling that this was the reason for your proposal. It's actually quite a fair point, and i agree with this, i was just saying that we need to be careful not to jeopardise the whole Anarchopedia project.  ~ User:Beta_M (VolodyA! V Anarhist) ^Talk

Request for comment :)

You are a poet, so I thought that perhaps you are interested in leaving a comment here. ~Rev 22 15:36, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Hey people I would like to leave a little comment myself. I feel this sites are a big step forward in Anarchy. By heart and by word. People.. Thanx to let me know that I ain't alone in my believes! hihi

Bye and keep up the good work!! x and love Annemiek --84.25.108.202 18:37, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

ISS Revenge and Category:Star Trek starships

Sorry to bug you again. These articles seems to be a parody or an original fiction of some sort. What do you think we should do of these? As with Category:Essays and Category:Poems, I think there is a problem with non-encyclopedic articles sharing the same categories with encyclopedic ones. ~Rev 22 16:55, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Here is how i approach the whole thing: Will somebody look for this information on the internet? If they will, then try to categorise the articles appropriately... decide yourself how to do that q;-); however, if nobody will ever actaully want to read that (well apart from a giggling original author) then there is that delete button on the top... Beta M

Hehe, well that is my approach too. I am personally opposed to censoring content just because it is non-encyclopedic or unrelated to anarchism. Deletion/censorship is a very serious action which should be reserved only to "illegal" content or when database space is exhausted. Categories are supposed to be useful for finding "stuff", so there may be a problem when a category is clogged with non-encyclopedic content and one is looking for encyclopedic articles only. But this will probably become a serious problem only when Anarchopedia will have 100,000 or more articles ;).

BTW, I was thinking about moving the essays from Category:Essays to Category:Archived essays so that the former category can be used for articles about essays. ~Rev 22 17:32, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Question

Hello. Curious as to why you have imported a number of articles from "BoyWiki"? The site and subject matter in question, and the way the articles have been written, are extremely disturbing. Regards, Neo 16:28, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Multiple reasons. I will try to list the ones that come to mind immidiately... i'm a little bit in a hurry.

1. Information demands to be free. Some of those articles are a little bias (some are more than a little), but i think they were a very good starting point for a propper informative articles.
2. I to the large extent support childlove movement.
3. I believe that this topic is becoming more and more relevant. And as such needs to be publicised. Even if you disagree with something, simply not talking about it won't make the world a better and freeer place.
4. I was trying to increase the number of articles in Anarchopedia by doing datadumps. I've not done that for a while, but that is partially due to the fact that i don't have much time.

Well i am sure i have/had more reasons, but i can't remember all of them now.  ~ Beta_M (VolodyA! V Anarhist) ^Talk 17:08

Poetry in anarchopedia fr

Hi, anarchopedia fr has made a page for putting freely(librement) poesy on a page. (This initiative can be done in each language). It will probably become a zine, a mural, a brochure or another dysformed paper. You can also post poetry in other language than french. http://fra.anarchopedia.org/index.php/Recueil_de_po%C3%A9sie  - Samarre

Wow, thanks a lot... q;-)  ~ Beta_M (VolodyA! V Anarhist) ^Talk 14:52

Vandalism

Reverting perfectly good edits is vandalism. You are driving good users away, and why? To protect those copying crap in from BoyWiki ? Your motives are suspect.

In particular, bald reverts to social sex, mutual assured destruction and Talk:George W. Bush are all obviously motivated by your own political biases and beliefs. In none of these did you make an operational reference. If you want to know how malware is authored, spend some time in P2P, you won't find it on google - you clearly didn't have time to do any research on that either.

No wonder "you were driven away from Wikipedia" and came here - you want to engage in power struggles and obviously you think you can win them easier here than there. Deletion of the wiki best practice page on specious grounds that you are in some position to define "trolling" objectively and sysop vandalism as a form of it, is also quite clearly evidence that you believe your own assessments of others' actions to be more important than their own. Re-examine, and restore if you see your own motives clearly. If not, others will have to watch you and start reverting you. 142.177.114.25

I'm sorry, your article about mutual assured destruction (a nuclear war term) has been linking anarchists to it, that is either trolling (trying to start edit wars/etc) or an attempt to discredit anarchist movement as the whole (sort of like talking about Dadaist rape gangs as the symbol of ultimate anarchy, or what-not). The reason i reverted social sex was due to the last sentense "This is thought by some analysts to be similar to the porn industry." I might be wrong (and i'll undo that revert right now (with the exception of that last edit) but it really looks more along the lines of "on the weels" trolls, who just come in to Anarchopedia and add nonsensical statements at the end of each paragraph (like "George Bush has been proven to be a pinguin on weels by some relgious scolars" or similar on George Bush article).

I agree that i should have cooled it with the Talk:George Bush due to the fact that it was a Talk page, it was only when i saw the pattern emerging when i went back and re-examined all your edits. I still would see something like what you've put up belonging more on a user page or something, but if you want it on the talk page... fine. I'll be more careful reverting your stuff next time.

You have to try to understand everything from more than one (yours) position, i didn't go after all your edits (which would clearly be trolling), but rather tried to understand them. But if we here (at Anarchopedia) will have a lot of nonsense articles then nobody will ever come back. I've not heard a single person who was ever trolled who'd glorify such an act. Anarchy is anything but the alianation of a group of people due to the desire of others to "have fun".

Finally, (i almost forgot) i stand by my edits regarding BoyWiki datadump. There is no point of being a half of an anarchist, you either support all freedom or you don't.  ~ Beta_M (VolodyA! V Anarhist) ^Talk 2006 October 11 14:58 _(UTC)

Whoa... WTF?

So what is this? An actual encyclopedia, or just a romping ground where you can randomly burninate everything? If it's just an encyclopedia, I want out. But if it's like a vandal playground, then sysop me and let me loose! Flameviper 19:47, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

What the hell are you talking about? Also please don't edit the user pages, you can use Talk for discussion.  ~ Beta_M (VolodyA! V Anarhist) ^Talk 2006 October 20 22:52 _(UTC)

From Wikipedia (regarding censorship)

Do not attempt to override consensus decisions and disrupt Wikipedia as you did here. I have nominated the recreated page for Speedy Deletion. --SandyDancer 19:49, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually i've done neither. I didn't recreate the page, simply commented on the deletion. I didn't disrupt anything on wikipedia, simply allowed people to know that there is a healthier environtment to work in where there is no sysop vandalism. Peace. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.95.106.91 (talk • contribs) 23:18, 4 December 2006 (UTC).

What did this user attempt to do? When I click the link it doesn not tell me anything.--Couter-revolutionary 23:55, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

What he tried to do was recreate a delated page on Wikipedia. That page was then nominated for Speedy Deletion, and was duly deleted, so all records of it on WP have been deleted. --SandyDancer 11:06, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

That's true with the exception of the fact that i didn't do that. What i did was to comment on deletion. I didn't recreate the page (which i could have done, having preserved the contents of it), in fact i didn't even urge people to recreate it (which i could have done, having published the preserved contents elsewhere). So your argument simply holds no water my dear SandyDancer, as all it's premices are in fact false. What was i actually trying to do, you ask, well i was pointing out that Wikipedia is not Anarchy Anarchopedia, however, is. I was also making a point that even though some people find it sad to think about it (and try to create a conflict), but Wikipedia is Censored. ^{— Unsigned, by: 85.95.106.91 (Talk)}

Talk of censorship is nonsense. Why would anyone seek to censor an article like that anyway? It is hardly a contentious subject matter - it is a student club.

Regarding my comment that you recreated a page - you did. You re-created the talk page, meaning someone had to come along and delete it. I accept you didn't try and recreate the actual article itself. --SandyDancer 22:13, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

When you want to figure out if something is being censored or not you cannot ask people who delete the content, it's like using the belief of a rapist to judge if the act was a rape. Complitely ridiculous. The fact that you assume that somebody "had to" delete my words even refering to the article show that it was in fact censorshit and not some form of non-"contentious" subject matter. And "You recreated the page, but you didn't recreate the page, you talked about it" is complete insult to intelligence. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Anarchopedian (talk • contribs) 23:18, 4 December 2006 (UTC).

OMFG, Anarchopedia article itself is deleted... and you are still going to tell me that it's not censorship?

Attributed quote

In that Mirabello article, the quote I moved will appear in his forthcoming book "Handbook for Rebels and Outlaws." I think it originally was in "attributed" because he often uses it in lectures.

Do you want me to change the edit back to the earlier version? --Blackhood 02:06, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Deletion

Hey, I noticed this wiki was hit by willy, hence art on wheels and Anarchopedia:Find or fix a stub on wheels. I wasn't sure how to request speedy deletion of a redirect or if that even exists here, so I figured I'd bring your attention to it since you're a sysop. Peace, Delldot 04:38, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi Beta M :)

Hi Beta M! :)
Just a quick hello from a newcomer! Keep up the good work! :) Cheers! Zyzygy 01:57, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

nooo... :)

The intention of our article should be just a critique of the concept of "race". Article from en.wiki has a lot of info and I am working on it. So, my intention is to make an article about "race", not about ethnicity. --Millosh 06:52, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I withdraw my objections... let it be race.  ~ User:Beta_M (VolodyA! V Anarhist) ^Talk 2007 July 24 07:22 _(UTC)

circle-A

Thanks, that sounds like a nice idea (using the Unicode symbol for the title). ~Rev 22 12:29, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Preferences

Please go to your preferences and click the "Mark edits I make as patrolled" box, for ease of vandalism patrol (while "hiding patrolled edits" at Special:Recentchanges). Thanks! Koekje 12:33, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Done... I just didn't want to make it ever appear that i want to snick in any edits past anybody... I thought it'd be a good policy to have a couple of people "agree" to the edit before it's patrolled. But the spam situation is getting out of hand again, so i'll keep that point to myself for now.  ~ User:Beta_M (VolodyA! V Anarhist) ^Talk 2007 September 7 17:48 _(UTC)

Heh, the "patrol" option is mostly for countering vandalism, I guess, so we won't have to check edits twice. As you are not a vandal, I don't really think anyone will think you snick past them :). Cheers! Koekje 17:51, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Vandal at childlover article.

Just thought you ought to know. Somebody really does not get the idea of free speech. Zazaban 02:21, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Capitals

It is proper grammar to have the beginning of a title be capitalized. Like in a sentence, it doesn't need to be a noun. Zazaban 05:17, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

That creates too many problems (imho). And when the difference is between beging "propperly grammatical" and making sense i chose the latter.

Also if we capitalise everything it will make it harder to distinguish between propper nouns and other words, see moon and Moon for example.  ~ User:Beta_M (VolodyA! V Anarhist) ^Talk 2007 December 12 07:43 _(UTC)

Privileges...

My user talk page on Meta was so often spammed, so I stopped to look at its changes... But, we solved problem yesterday or the day before yesterday :) --Millosh 19:25, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Hello

Hello Beta_M! :) Thanks for the message on my talk page and for welcoming me! I'm glad to be a part of this wiki. I left a comment on my talk page for you. --Grrrlriot 18:57, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

"sysop"

I thought everyone was a sysop here, so what do you mean here? -Anonymity 05:27, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Everybody can register and edit, but not everybody can do things like delete pages, and change global pages. This is because we started having vandals coming to the portal with nothing better to do but to completely fuck up the project. SysOps in no way can do things to censor views they don't like, and it's visible to everyone what they do simply by going to Special:Recentpages, if any sysop (including me) abuses their technical ability, please rase alarm, either here, on meta.anarchopedia or on irc chatroom.  ~ User:Beta_M (VolodyA! V Anarhist) ^Talk 2008 January 28 07:36 _(UTC)

I thought everyone was a sysop too. Is that not correct? I'm glad to be a sysop. I'm just a little confused like User:Anonymity. --Grrrlriot 16:43, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism/Greeting

Thanks for the warm welcome, comrade! I wondered whether those recent additions were just vandalism or something more ... capitalist. Glad to learn it's just vandalism. Thanks again for the greeting.  This flag once was red  18:42, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Sir Lestaty de Lioncourt 08:41, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Please change my status in rus.anarchopedia the Millosh changed in almost all those most active users he has asked me to speak with them. Since ja thank! Sir Lestaty de Lioncourt 11:50, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Re:

I protected the talk pages because there is spam. I should have thought about what I was doing. I was being inconsiderate and shouldn't have protected talk pages, so I have unprotected them. My actions are inexcusable. --Anonymity 22:09, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

LoL, there's no reason to be that harsh on yourself, everybody does things which aren't a good idea after reconsidering, you did what you thought was right, it just backfired. Glad to have you on Anarchopedia, comrade.  ~ User:Beta_M (VolodyA! V Anarhist) ^Talk 2008 February 23 06:39 _(UTC)

Black cross-Free speech

Hi Beta M, as soon as you come back, please contact me for this project.. Thanks..--Libertà 23:20, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Immature vandalism

Just so you know, there's a vandal currently going around editing pages to include large banners personally attacking me. I'm trying my best to stop him, but I think he's using a proxy. A little help would be appreciated. Zazaban 19:18, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

P.S. He's likely to try to delete this message. Zazaban 19:18, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

WOAHH A PROXY!!!!111 sCAARY"!!!!!!

• Hmm, I see what you mean when you say immature. I'll revert on sight. 142.22.186.13 21:37, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

YEAH HITTEM HARD THATS GONNA TEACH THEM PROXY!!!!1

non-proper nouns

Sorry, I was not aware of this. In fact I was a bit surprised at first to see the titles start with small letters. Actually I moved the articles because I though it is the standard practice as I saw in wikipedia. Also I noticed the software in Anarchopedia can detect the difference between small and capital letter in titles. Thanks for explaining this, I am moving the titles back to its previous version. However I am not sure about green anarchism. You probably missed I only moved the article Green anarchy to Green anarchism. eco-anarchism and green anarchism are present as two separate articles. In my opinion green anarchism is more commonly used name than green anarchy, so I moved it from green anarchy to green anarchism. And I think we should create some more basic policies like reliable source, variability etc. especially to avoid spam. I am enthusiastic in opening a discussion on this matter. --Cercopithecus 14:59, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

My reverts

Hello, i have reverted some of your edits (mostly the ones introducing "anarcho-masculinism"). Mostly because although it is true that everybody is hurt by the discrimination such as patriarchy it would be false to say that this implies that matriarchy is in fact in existance in most of today's world.  ~ User:Beta_M (VolodyA! V Anarhist) ^Talk 2008 July 14 11:38 _(UTC)

I reverted correctly unwanted masculinism - I thought that masculinism is male counterpart of feminism, and I introduced it only for purpose of symmetricity. I too used plain English AE instead of Scandinavian Æ in article name reverted by you, because A and E exists in modern English/US Latin alphabet, while Æ, Œ, Þ, Ð are only in Scandinavian alphabets, but not in modern English/US script. RAAF 17:26, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

pornography

The article pornography you created and written was edited by Zazaban from pro-capitalist POV. I believe since pornography is commercialization of sex, this site should have anti-porn stance. Also we should oppose marriage also, which is a social enslavement. I have commented on this in Talk:pornography. --Cercopithecus 17:14, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I believe since whole pornography of all types is a commercialization of sex, this Anarchopedia site should have wholly anti-porn stance, even by disallowing of placing link to LGBT porn on main page, because LGBT is too part of commercial pornography. RAAF 12:02, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

MWAHAAAA!!!! --Cercopithecus 07:26, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

RAAF, please stop trying to remove LGBT from the site because LGBT people are 'going to hell,' nobody else here agrees with your reasoning. Zazaban 18:42, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

My reasoning is purely anarchistic: LGBT as XXX-related is at least derived from / inspired by capitalist XXX industry. RAAF 09:52, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Main page layout

Hi, I have created a new main page layout in User:Cercopithecus/Main page. I think this new layout will be more interesting than the present version, will help readers to know more about our articles and will help to grow the project faster. Please tell what you think about it. --Cercopithecus 23:58, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Looks good, may i suggest to increase the amount of white space to make content more legible?  ~ User:Beta_M (VolodyA! V Anarhist) ^Talk 2008 October 7 15:02 _(UTC)

Increased a bit, also changed the background and header color. --Cercopithecus 21:17, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Sysop vandalism

Please restore these pages. Jillium 23:54, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Featured article

Hi, how do I suggest my article be featured?--Darrelljon 23:09, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

I have created Anarchopedia:Featured article candidates. Place your article there for a final discussion. --Weapon 18:24, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

RAAF, ANTIFA, etc

This long and useless discussion has been moved to User talk:Beta_M/Users RAAF and ANTIFA.  ~ User:Beta_M (VolodyA! V Anarhist) ^Talk 2009 December 29 19:06 _(UTC)

Did I give an interview (to borrow from the topic name on my talk page)

No, unfortunately it wasn't me whose interview you read. I haven't actually given any interviews and I'm still actually in school. But I'll be sure to look at those articles you wrote on African Anarchism and ZabFed, as soon as I have time, which will probably be this coming weekend seeing as though today is the last day of my December/January school holidays. I'll definitely see if I can give something of an insider's perspective on Anarchism in Africa. And thank you for making me feel at home, it's definitely a better reception than I got when I started on Wikipedia.--Tiocfaidh ár lá 17:27, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and if a person is engaging in obvious vandalism, how should a SysOp approach the problem?--Tiocfaidh ár lá 17:27, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Well it really depends. We don't have an absolute rule on this. I try not to ban anybody unless absolutely necessary. Of course, do revert the vandalism when you see it; but i'd recommend trying to see why the person is vandalising. Sometimes people vandalise articles they don't like (anarchist movement does still have many forms of bigotry that we didn't deal with yet), but they can potentially help the project, in which case i try to talk to them. I do ban people temporarily or perminantly when there's no other way to deal with the problem. I'm sorry that i didn't give you a simple answer, but unfortunately it's a very complex issue.  ~ User:Beta_M (VolodyA! V Anarhist) ^Talk 2010 January 12 18:29 _(UTC)