User:Beta M/Wikiconflict

User:Beta m and his freenet spamming

User:Beta m started actively adding links to articles at freenet. He also proposes a "campaign" for doing this, see User:Beta m/Freenet.

People cannot access these articles without establishing of p2p connectivity. Therefore I see promotion of this links as spamming in favor of the system.

Many people, including me, fear p2p for security reasons. I cannot determine the encyclopedicity of the links because I cannot see them, which violates the requirement of verifiability.

I suggest for this user to "cease and desist". mikka (t) 18:12, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

This is just upsetting, i have written this and more on the page you have sent me to, but the software has eaten it... so it seems. Crap like that just makes me want to stop with the whole wiki thing... damn. Oh, well, i'll survive. By the way please go and see my other contributions to wikipedia... you'll see that i don't spam... User:Beta m/sig

Well, there is the freenet equivalent of an open proxy: public fproxy (the standard freenet web interface) sites, which allow anyone to look at freesites without having to install freenet themselves (it's just less anonymous). With them, you can determine if the links are encyclopedic or not, and even use them for usual browsing if you do not care much about being anonymous.

You just have to google for the title of the main fproxy page (which I cannot remember right now; it's been too long since I last tried to use freenet) and you will find them.

--cesarb 19:49, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

An additional concern against installing "freenet": "typical user may unknowingly host this sort of information (i.e., illegal, like child porno), which may potentially make them subject to severe civil and criminal penalties." mikka (t) 19:48, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

However, to this i must say that if you look at articles related to racism and white power movement they tend to have links with content illegal in many countries (France for example if i remember correctly). And while viewing content in Internet Explorer it will be chached on the hard drive of the viewer, thus violating the law. User:Beta m/sig

Mikkalai, I disagree with your objection to these links. "fearing p2p for security reasons" is just FUD. Not all P2P software is insecure. This claim is especially incorrect when we're talking about Freenet, which is designed from the ground up for anonymity. Please learn more about Freenet and its goals before removing these links. Since Freenet is a not-for-profit research project, I find it unlikely that Beta m is "spamming" in favor of Freenet.

Although I think your reason for objecting is silly and detrimental to P2P projects, I still don't think we should aggressively add Freenet links into articles. Wikipedia is a general-purpose encyclopedia, and Freenet is relatively unknown to a general readership. The only reason I'm against adding these links is because they would be useless to most people. Also, this discussion doesn't belong on the administrators' noticeboard. This is a content dispute, not a case of spamming. Please take it to the Village Pump or article talk pages, or make a general policy proposal. Rhobite 20:04, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

I see it as case of promoting of a particular service, i.e., spamming. When I see the sticker, kind of "information free of censorship," more often than not this is a kind of Hyde Park place where everyone may uncontrollably babble whatever one wants. I am not questioning their rights to do so, but have grave concerns about encyclopedicity and verifiability of such sources. And this is not content dispute, since I cannot verify the content for the reasons I explained here. mikka (t) 20:45, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Of course it is a content dispute. You disagree with Beta m about the content of articles. Therefore it is a content dispute. The fact that you refuse to view the links does not turn this into "spamming" or a user conduct issue. Rhobite 20:57, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

Everything disputed in wikipedia is about content of some article. I don't "refuse" to view the links. I am very curious, and I would very much like to, but I don't want someone storing porno at my PC when I subscribe to the service. I would be very much obliged if anyone convince me that I am paranoic. mikka (t) 21:21, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

You are paranoid, as elaborated by my comments below. I'm not sure you can prevent your computer from being used to transfer porn, but you won't get in trouble for it. If you want, I can dig out my old Freenet install and open a public proxy for you to use. ~~ N (t/c) 21:33, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, your word ("no trouble") cannot be counted as legal advice; the issue was not tried yet, and I don't want to be the case which sets a legal precedent. mikka (t) 22:12, 8 August 2005 (UTC).

I'm not saying you'd win the case, but the fact that nobody has been sued yet is solace enough for me. I understand if it isn't for you. ~~ N (t/c) 22:38, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

I don't really care about the presence of links to Freenet, as they are useful to those who can use them. (By the way, Mikkalai, Freenet has no known security risks (although its anonymity is imperfect, it can't compromise your system), and I know of nobody who has ever gotten in legal trouble for using it, at least outside of a dictatorial country (which category does NOT include the US).) However, I noticed that one of the links added, to Jackass (TV series), linked to a freesite with Jackass episodes for download. That has the risk of getting the project in big legal trouble. ~~ N (t/c) 20:17, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

This is in support of my point: if a person tries to avoid legal troubles and does not use questionable arrangements, like me, he cannot verify the content of the link. As for "no known security risks," excuse me, but this is being discussed by "freenet" itself. mikka (t) 20:45, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

I don't understand that sentence. What do you mean, "this is being discussed by 'freenet' itself"? You are just spreading FUD, stop it. Rhobite 20:54, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

So, dear lover of censorship-free information transfer, what you just did is shutting someone's mouth, label-slapping, and personal attack. As for "what do you mean," read yourserlf. mikka (t) 21:17, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm saying put up or shut up. You claimed that Freenet isn't secure, and that you "fear p2p for security reasons". Without any concrete evidence of Freenet's insecurity, this is pretty much the definition of FUD. And plus, the WWW isn't secure either - should we stop linking to external sites completely? Rhobite 00:27, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

You could be more specific, and AFAIK, all security concerns with Freenet relate to lack of anonymity. Again AFAIK, it has no known vulnerabilites that would actually compromise your system. Unless you're located in a repressive regime (again, the US doesn't count), you have nothing to fear by using Freenet. ~~ N (t/c) 21:56, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

He-he; "US doesn't count": do you mean it is repressive? . Anyway, I do live in the USA; repressive or not, the possibility of collecting information about a person is considered here a pretty serious threat to liberties, which may seem paranoical to people from countries with really grave liberty problems. mikka (t) 22:12, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

I mean the US (where I too live) won't jail you for using Freenet. I don't deny it's on the road to repressiveness, but that's a whole other issue. ~~ N (t/c) 22:38, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree, if we do keep the links we should be careful about linking to sites with illegal content. To those who respond "what's the point, then?" Freenet is also a tool for free speech without fear of political reprisal or libel lawsuits. There are conceivable reasons to link to Freenet content. Rhobite 20:40, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

I have to say that I don't think freenet links are approprate. Wikipedia is supposed to be a useful reference source, not a place to push new things; and Freenet is most definately a "new" thing, something that lacks widespread recognition. The primary effect of placing Freenet links in these articles is therefore not to provide the user with more information, but to advertise for Freenet.

Additionally, remember that Wikipedia itself can get in trouble for linking to banned and illegal materials; in other words, we can't link to anything that would actually require Freenet anyway. Therefore there is no reason to ever place a Freenet link in a wikipedia article, except perhaps as an example in the Wikipedia entry on Freenet itself.

The "Freenet project" and the links that have already been placed look to me like they're more intended to spread awareness of Freenet than anything else. Some of the opinions posted above seem to support this; people acknowledge that we can't link to illegal or banned materials on Freenet anyway, making the links redundant as references, then defend their use by saying that Freenet itself is a good thing and ought to be encouraged. Well, maybe it is and maybe it isn't, but Wikipedia isn't supposed to be used for encouraging or discouraging anything. In my opinion, the Freenet links ought to be removed on those grounds. Anything we can link to under Wikipedia policy can be more easily accessed outside of Freenet. Aquillion 21:18, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Some of the stuff linked to in Freenet isn't illegal or banned. The links from childlove movement, for instance, contain no porn and look as if they might be interesting. ~~ N (t/c) 21:24, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

If something linked to in Freenet isn't illegal or banned, then chances are it is available outside of Freenet... As a case in point, look at the link article you just linked to. Of the two Freenet links on that page, the first one was easily found from a non-freenet source (and I have replaced it); using Freenet for things that can be found more easily via HTTP serves no purpose but to advertise Freenet itself. The second was essentially a personal blog; while slightly interesting, it gave no more information than the already-numerous, far simpler HTTP links above it. Possibly if such a page on Freenet was the only source of information for an article then it would make sense to link to it; but in a case like this, with twelve HTTP links already in place, it was clearly unnecessary. Aquillion 21:47, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

You know, you're entirely right. For instance, the "Everything You Always Wanted To Know About Anarchism" freesite linked to from anarchism is also on the regular WWW. That's one of the things I never understood about Freenet - the mirroring of already-widely-available, legal content. ~~ N (t/c) 22:38, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

This part is easy to understand: an attempt do draw attention; perfectly in line with what was the cause why I started this discussion. It looks like there is not enough geniune "uncensored information." mikka (t) 23:08, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

About the particular case of Dune (computer game), I see no reason whatsoever for "secure" or "anonymous" links; While I don't oppose such links for touchy subjects, where information is harmless such links should be considered spam, useful or no, as they are advertising a service (free or no, it's still advertising). ^wS;✉ 21:35, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Once again we can compare issue of books to this one. If i would have placed a refference to out of print book on the same page, nobody would say "There is no reason for that since there are webpages that deal with that game". Let the reader decide what is reasonable and what is not. User:Beta m/sig 15:35, 2005 August 9 (UTC)

That's hardly my point. No video game in the Dune series is controversial or subject of potential censorship, and enough information is provided from simple internet searches. You are simply advertising a service which is of no interest for the vast majority of internet users that would visit the said page. Also, if there was a book, even out of print, just the fact of it being a book based on a video game would still justify its inclusion and the lack of printed copies in the market does not mean the book can't be obtained from personal sellers (Dune: Spice Opera, the music CD of the first game had a short print that make it only very tough to find even in ebay, and has its own article). ^wS;✉ 19:48, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

I don't like these links from an aesthetic sense; many links were inserted into articles without any context whatsoever, and for 99.9% of editors, these remain unverifiable, as we refuse to install the special software to view them. Also, it adds four or five lines to an article for one link that may or may not be notable. I'm not blanket deleting these, only deleting them where notability is not established in the link; but honestly, I can't see why we should allow these. An encyclopedia is about verifiability. 100% of our readers can click an http link and read an article; a good portion can look up a book we have; very very few should be expected to install a new, possibly insecure program by people they've never heard of to verify our content. Being relevant to a topic is not the only criteria for addition to an article.

I find Beta's remark - about ISBNs - incorrect. No, not everyone can buy a book - but everyone can click the link and look up information on it. We have no such luxury with freenet, no intermediary like Amazon to tell us what's in that mysterious 127.0.0.1 link. I think these should be removed except where absolutely necessary - and I can think of very few cases for that. --Golbez 21:49, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

I'm going to try to reply on this page again. Last two times i've attempted this the software wouldn't let me. First, the fact that there is not Amazon for freesites doesn't make a link unverifyable. There are books that are not on Amazon, there are even some published by independent publishing companies without websites, that does not make those books unverifyable. It is not impossible to check what's on those freesites, you just don't want to go through the trouble, and that's a very different story.

Also, i would like to make a request. It's an unofficial one. Please when you talk to people remain calm. From the beginning of the whole thing people who for some reason have some axe to grind against anything which can't be googled have been talking in (although not insulting) but very agressive fashion. Rather than attempting to resolve the problem one on one i was automatically began to be reverted and placed on Administrators' noticeboard, i was told to "cease and desist" without actually being told what am i to cease to do: adding more links, editing my user namespace page calling for others to join in with me, you have told me on the Talk:Freenet/Ways to view a freesite#Move that the page must be moved without explaining where, and once again the tone seemed to have been chosen to get me to lose my cool. Of course if that would have happen and i would go adding porn freesite links to articles about the Pope i would probably get banned and (as far as you would be conserned) problem would get solved. However, my dear friends, i'm not about to do that. Peace. User:Beta m/sig

It's not all about you. If you think my words were picked to deliberately "get you to lose your cool", then there are bigger problems at work here than freenet spamming. --Golbez 22:14, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

My dear fellow wikipedian, please consider these points:

1. This section was called spamming and listed, User:Beta_m as the spammer. While "not all is about [me]" this section here sort of is.
2. No resolution has been attempted before listing me and my actions on this noticeboard. The first comment on my talk page relating to this was to inform me about existance of this "incident".
3. Your comment on the talk page wasn't rude, and i have admitted that, however, it was by no way neutral (although it was better then the comment above this one). But i'll just say Om mani padme hum and let it all go.
4. While i have conseded some edits (Dune (computer game) for example) not to start edit wars, i did not perceive this sort of reaction from the other side. Note It is very much possible that i have misinterpreted this particular point, (and in fact all of them), but this is just my pov.
5. As you can see below in the "from mikka talk page" subsection, the first thing that i have done was to attempt to release some tention ("please don't take it personally"), than i have given the reasons for my actions... and even provided a resolution process which i would think would bring everybody to consensus. Many wikipedians don't even know about this page (i didn't untill this "incident") but they do know about VfD and TfD, thus more people could actually comment on this issue. This however, is not beneficial when the consensus is not what you are looking for, but simply want to win.
6. When i've been asked to do something (which i didn't really care to do), such as write up a "How to guide for viewing of Freesites", i have done so almost immediately (falsely believing that this would (at least partially) sattisfy the <sarcasm>"delete them all and let the god sort them out"</sarcasm> side of the argument). What did that bring me? No resolution of the conflict, just more problems.

So is this all about me? No of course it's not. But it is about the knowing more pages to report somebody to either. It is about the readers of this encyclopedia, the only one what attempts to have a NPOV and always include both sides of the argument. User:Beta m/sig

I don't object to the addition of freesite links that are legal and useful, but it looks like most of those you added don't satisfy both criteria. The anarchism ones (and probably many more) are available on the regular Web, and the ones offering downloads of software/music could put Wikipedia in legal jeopardy. Even if it is abandonware (as the Dune site says), it's best to avoid any infringement, don't you think? ~~ N (t/c) 23:03, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

My difficulty with these links is really that it requires people to install software to view them, software that is not produced by Wikipedia. Discounting the responsibility angle, it just somehow goes against the grain to actually make it more difficult for people to get information if it is actually already available legally on the web, and if it is not, then the legal ramifications of providing links to non-legal content set in. I don't see how such links are more useful than any other, just because of anonymity, which in the majority of cases, is not an issue. --khaosworks (talk• contribs) 23:32, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

Mikka says "I cannot determine the encyclopedicity of the links because I cannot see them, which violates the requirement of verifiability." What about links to books that occur throughout Wikipedia? I can not determine the encylopedicity of these links unless I go to the bookstore or library and ask for these books. It is a lot easier to download a p2p program and check out links. As far as security, I am more concerned about the government using the Patriot Act then running some p2p program. I'm not really sure what Mikka means by security - I wrote my own p2p program once, I know it is secure because I wrote it. I do not know what the Patriot Act is doing to my library checkouts. Mikka's arguments in this regard do not make sense.

I think a total ban on Freenet links makes little sense. For example, on the Freenet page, I don't see why a Freenet link shouldn't be posted. Or on one of the other p2p pages. Or a Freenet link to pages that for one reason or another are not on the web - maybe they're from some political group that doesn't have a web page for some reason. I mean, if I go to [[1]], there is a straight NNTP link, and there are many such links around Wikipedia. I think the appropriateness of the links are determined by the individual case. I would tend to be more lenient. Mikka might be unwilling to verify something, just like I might not want to go to the library, or get an NNTP browser and whatnot, but that's his choice. Ruy Lopez 19:29, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Ruy, can you please give an example of an NNTP link in the main namespace, in an article outside of ones about newsgroups, instead of on a Wikipedia: article where such arguments are irrelevant? --Golbez 22:23, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

Proposed resolution of the conflict

OK, i'll try to step back on some points in order to attempt to reach an agreement here.

1. Links to freesites that have a "twin" on the world wide web are out.
2. Links to freesites that contain propriatary licenced products (software, images, music, e-books) are out.
3. Links to freesites that (although not propriatary) are illegal in Florida, USA are out.
4. Links to freesites that only exist on freenet, are relevant to the article and don't fit any of the above criteria are in.

Please let me know what you think about that. User:Beta m/sig

I am still skeptical about the usefulness of these links, but am willing to compromise. I would support this only if there is an attached disclaimer warning that the link can only be accessed through Freenet. I would prefer it if someone besides the editor adding the link (and not a sockpuppet of course) would be able to verify that it's relevant and useful, but that may be impractical. The disclaimer should still be attached, in any case. --khaosworks (talk• contribs) 08:43, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

I support this - Freenet links, while of limited usefulness, don't hurt. I've used Freenet for a long time, and would be willing to examine any proposed links. Just post them on my talk page. ~~ N (t/c) 08:57, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

I'd have less problem with this if the Freenet links didn't take up five lines on a page. And if they need five lines, then maybe that's an argument against them. We don't have to spend five lines telling people what a book or newsgroup is, or how to access it. And we certainly don't need an entire subpage in the main namespace to tell people how to get a book, or download a newsreader. There will be very, very few cases in which the confusion and relative lack of verifiability is outweighed by the usefulness of the link. --Golbez 22:23, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

from mikka talk page

Hello, please don't take it personally, but i have reverted your removal of the Freenet links. I've never seen any policy of Wikipedia that stated that only World Wide Web articles can be reffenced. If your argument was that not all users have Freenet installed, than you also must go and remove any ISBN refferences, since not every person has ability to buy a particular book. If you wish to create a precident, rather than removing links one at the time i would suggest placing Template:Freenet links on vote for deletion or something, so that everybody can just talk it out rather than start revert wars.

Also please note that all the freesites that were addes were in fact relevant to the particular toppics, and thus can be useful to a person who is doing the research about a topic, if that person just happen to have an access to a freenode. Thank you for your time. User:Beta m/sig

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taken from Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents as of 22:23, 2005 August 10